Remember the whole "teach them correct principles and the govern themselves" thing? I'm wondering how to govern myself.
1. Sleeveless shirts. In general I think it's silly not to put sleeveless shirts on baby girls (it's pretty white trash on boys). Seriously, they're babies. If it's ok to run around naked, then shouldn't putting a shirt, any shirt, be a step up? But I've been noticing lately that I'm the only one of my LDS friends to not put a t-shirt under my baby girl's sleeveless items. My plan was to phase out sleeveless stuff as Alice aged. I have always appreciated that my mom let me pick when to stop wearing sleeveless shirts. I was in fifth grade. I distinctly remember the day I decided I was old enough that that type of clothing was no longer appropriate for me (and I used that exact language in my very mature 5th grade head). As such I never resented my parents for forcing me to dress modestly. I'm sure I complained, but I always knew in the end it was my choice. I want Alice to likewise use her own agency to dress modestly. But maybe with the more wicked turn the world has taken in my 26 years, that's not a luxury I can afford anymore. Maybe I should stick a onies under her sleeveless dresses. (And as a side note for Evan, I do worry a bit about her skin and skin cancer...but only a bit).
2. Sleeping arrangements. Greg and I both have siblings who have left the Church and have chosen to live with a significant other before marriage. One visited us this week...well they aren't living together but you get my drift. I provided separate beds in separate rooms. They were very courteous and didn't say anything or even roll their eyes. I was a bit embarrassed. They are both over 30. This week turned out just fine. But what if they never get married. What do you when a couple lives together unmarried for 10 years? Make them sleep in separate beds at your house? What if they have children? Where's the line? Is there a line? Or is it just--get married?
Seriously though, what do you think? Help me govern myself.
You ask tough questions...
ReplyDeleteI put both of my girls in sleeveless..even to church (gasp!) call me a rebel but I think it's cute
ReplyDeleteI shall answer your questions with very direct answers.
ReplyDelete1. Do not feel the pressure from other ridiculous people to put a shirt under your infant daughter's dresses. Please, please, please. It's really stupid to do that. I like what your parents did. Do that. I'm 1000% serious.
2. I think it's acceptable to ask that they sleep in separate rooms. Down the road it can get a little hazier. Personally, I would make accommodations based partly on the space I had available, and how committed their relationship was (not living together yet definitely means they can still be expected to sleep separately). For example, my brother has been living with his gf for about 13-14 years. In my mind (and according to CA state law), they're basically married, and if they visited me in a normal house, I'd just set up one room for them. But ultimately it comes down to what you are comfortable with in your house. And hopefully that decision is respected, no matter what.
1. You should just do what you are comfortable with. I attempt to buy mostly things with sleeves for Cora, and we don't do spaghetti straps without a shirt, but just sleeveless...well, I just don't think it's immodest for a little girl...then again, I had her pictures taken in a sleeveless dress when she was 3 and my mom refused to display the picture in her home. Soooo...obviously some people feel differently. I've just always thought that when she turns 8 and joins the church or at the latest, 12 we'll follow the dictates of the standards for youth booklet...it's certainly not the standards for babies book! But seriously, people just need to do what they are comfortable with.
ReplyDelete2. Somehow I have had this very situation this week...and well, you know what I did, and let's just say we all have to do what we are comfortable with! There is a fine line between living our standards and showing unconditional love to members in our family that walk a different path. This could be a LONG conversation, so I'll just leave it at that!
1. @ Emily, is not stupid. The thermostat at church is largely controlled by men in suits. Therefore if I am freezing, my 17lb little girl is probably freezing. I only use onesies under dresses (not to church because it is always cold there) until it gets extremely hot. When it does, you will see Lottie in a lot more sleeveless stuff. I didn't stop wearing sleeveless (not spaghetti strap, but definitely tank tops)until I got married. And even now, I will wear them to run in.
ReplyDelete2. You've got to do what you are comfortable with. Maybe when they are still committed and over 40, they can sleep in the same room :)
I agree with aswigfromthesiggs- I put my children in undershirts under the sleeveless until it warms up. Once it's warm enough, then I don't put them in undershirts. I agree- it's TOO COLD at church!
ReplyDeleteI never wore sleeveless stuff around until I was 25'ish, but only when I exercise. I felt kind of....gangly, Gumby'ish.....my own self-conscience feelings of course.
I just wonder what Alice will think when she gets older and suddenly the rules change. If it's not OK to wear sleeveless things when she's 12, then why is it OK when she's 11? I'm guessing Alice will be awesome and mature like you, Heather, and choose on her own regardless, but I just wonder about the double-standard.
ReplyDeleteI've never had to deal with hosting couples, so I realize it's much harder than it sounds, but again, the double-standard. If it's not OK with you to have them in the same room when they just started dating 3 months ago, but after 10 years it is, what changed? It's still wrong (I assume) in your eyes to live/sleep together unmarried regardless of how long they've been doing it. They're family, they know your beliefs and the gospel (because they grew up in it) so it won't be a shock to them that you're uncomfortable with what they're doing. If they're guests in your house, then they'll know to respect your beliefs, your rules (I would hope so, at least! No, I know so. You have good people in your family.) Like I said, easier said/discussed/debated than done, but stick with your standards and you'll be respected for it. That I do know and I do have experience with.
Pretty much agree full-on with Elizabeth here. I recall going off to college--"on my own"--after a childhood of not being able to wear sleeveless shirts, and I decided to sport a classic wife-beater. I was thinking I'd be pretty awesome...but I ended up feeling really awkward and sheepish. I'm sure I felt that way because of what I was used to. I was glad that I was USED to wearing modest clothing so it was easier to make the right decision when I was on my own.
DeleteWith the sleeping in the same room thing, I think it comes down to the same thing. You don't want that kind of example being exposed (more than is necessary) in your own home in front of your kids. Being exposed to that kind of lifestyle, and supporting it in your home, sends a message to your kids.
I liked Emily's comment, especially with regard to CA state law. Maybe that's a good line in the sand?
ReplyDeleteWe drive past your house every Thursday, and I miss you. The end.
Love that you ask hard questions and have smart friends. Why should I even comment after Elizabeth said it all? Because I'm a chatterbox.
ReplyDeleteOn the sleeves, I say if they are too young to know what they're even wearing it's ok. My kids have some sleeveless shirts/jerseys that are hand-me-downs and they wear them to the pool and bed and I think it's ok b/c they're young but I don't want to have a double standard for a DD, so I won't actually purchase so called immodest clothes. The point of standards is they don't change, right? I just liked what you said, if it's ok for them to be naked then why would it matter if they don't wear sleeves? Hello. BTW 11 is way too old to suddenly change the "standard" up on the kid. My mom said put cute baby shrugs on them. I am making my niece a baby dress and I'm going to include sleeves or a matching shirt if sleeves are too hard to sew. There was an adorable boy in nursery Sunday in only plaid overalls and he was freezing-wickedness never was happiness! Kidding.
As far as the cohabiting sleepover question, that is so tough! You definitely did the right thing, and I say in 10 years you can just say hey I have an 11 year old girl, sorry. Just quote some movie like Dan in Real Life, separate bdrms until marriage or whatever you have to do to ease the awkwardness. You know, offer to throw them a wedding in your living room.
By the way, for some reason there are several 30 ish married women in my ward who wear super short skirts compared to what they ought to be wearing, and a mom who is really sexy and always pushing the limits and her daughters are usually wearing sleeveless dresses to church (they are still in Primary,) and I think they aren't really being given a chance to see and experience modesty, they are seeing that your body is supposed to be sexy and objectified. Even at church. Their dad is cute and all trendy at church too, pink shirts and whatnot, and no one thing any of them wears is a problem, it's the continual message week after week that we dress for fashion and to send a message not to show respect for our bodies and our creator.
Deep sigh. You are awesome, Heather! Angry fist!
-Paige
question number one? THANK YOU FOR ASKING! i am so seriously frustrated with this one as a mom. i NEVER wore anything immodest from day one. my mom was a natzi. but seriously... with my own kid its hard to understand whats okay and whats not... i mean... dude.
ReplyDeletequestion number two? it just made me miss you. why is it that you can take something like this situation and make it sound so important and confusing and mind boggling and funny all at the same time? oh my gosh... you had my dying of laughter by the end because i could just see you talking about this at a presidency meeting. gosh i miss you. i am sorry you had that horrible situation and i have no solutions... and i hope i never face that problem.